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Last night it was late and I was reading through a thread about Dr. Wright's upcoming interview with Bill Moyers. We are on our way through another firestorm of controversy concerning race and race relations and some of the comments and sentiments concerning what Dr. Wright was trying to say became very critical and negative. So I took up my self-assigned role of cultural interpreter and began trying to explain and defend what Dr. Wright was saying in attempt to explain the role of a preacher vs that of a politician, and I found myself feeling very frustrated and tired of having to gingerly tiptoe around these incredibly shallow perspectives that even the most informed whites have about being Black in America, and dealing with the cards we have been dealt. Now this is no play for sympathy, but a further invitation to try to see this thing through someone else's eyes. Anyway, beyond the fold you will see what may seem to be a bit of a rant. I have converted it to a diary in the light of day because I really think in some small way this may help, or maybe not...

I'm getting tired too.
And I may be ready to give up on white people. I am so very sorry to say this but there is something in me that wants to start screaming GROW UP. This nation is out of control and headed for a cliff. Obama's presidency and the movement around him may be the last best chance to turn this place around, start again and head in a different direction. But America cannot demand that Barack, or Dr. Wright, or the Black community, or the Black church or our faith traditions, and all of who we are and all of who he is to turn ourselves inside out and become some milk-toast white-washed, shadow of ourselves to keep from annoying you with who we are. We have lived through 7 generations of the most inhuman, unjust, and brutal treatment any human being has ever afflicted on another in the history of the world. We have survived largely because of our faith and our preachers. Barack has offered himself to a movement at great sacrifice and he is one of our own, and at the same time one of your own. He is our very best with the unique blend of character, patience, endurance, intelligence, humility and faith to lead us all out of this mess. He has walked away from a great life to do this, and everyday is a target of scrutiny and criticism and a gruelling torturous journey and even threats to his life.

And even from this group the so called progressive supporters, I see some of the most thoughtless and ridiculous comments. So if we can't stand together and overcome these obstacles respectfully--well fine, America will get the government it deserves. And after a few years of Hillary or McCain if there is anything left of this place...perhaps a merciful God will send another blessing for us to abuse or choose. I'm sure that person will be far more flawed and far less capable, and it may even be too late. Whatever, I'm just really getting tired and weary, and I thought you should know.

Originally posted to jazzyjay on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:19 AM PDT.

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Comment Preferences

  •  Whitewash us all with the same brush, eh? (16+ / 0-)

    There's a word for that. I'm sorry you're feeling tired and frustrated, but taking it out on all members of a group is unworthy.

    -9.0, -8.3. Socialized medicine, not "universal coverage". Public transit, not "35 mpg".

    by SensibleShoes on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:22:57 AM PDT

  •  Don't give up on me (11+ / 0-)

    I am white (as white as can be) and I stand 100% behind Reverend Wright. Not because of Obama, just because of what Jeremiah Wright stands for.

    I think that a concerted campaign to get the truth about Rev. Wright and Trinity must be organized. Again not because that is good for Obama in the election, but because it is the right thing to do.

    Anybody interested in organizing or paricipating in it, please e-mail me at charles dot iban at googlemail dot com or direct me to where this sort of campaign is already being built (if anywhere).

    An' when they was no meat we ate fowl. An'when they was no fowl we ate crawdad. An' when they was no crawdad to be foun', we ate San'. -- Moses

    by Fairy Tale on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:26:03 AM PDT

  •  Hmmm, I was on (13+ / 0-)

    some of those threads -- I defended Wright's words, positions and his American right to speak in any forum.  Unfortunately, I'm white -- sorry.  Your rejection of me -- because of the color of my skin -- doesn't mean much as I don't know you.  I will continue to defend Rev. Wright, the TUCC and Sen. Obama.

    My faith in the Constitution is whole, it is complete, it is total. Barbara Jordan 1974

    by gchaucer2 on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:26:34 AM PDT

  •  I'm tired and weary too (3+ / 0-)

    But it is the Corporatist TM and HRC that is doing it to me. I am sorry you feel it necessary to take your eyes off what is really going on here. your diary is counter-productive.

    The Fierce Urgency of Now. --MLK

    by MantisOahu on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:27:09 AM PDT

    •  Not Counterproductive when it's publicly aired... (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Phil N DeBlanc, Ambboogie

      everyday the number of whites who won't vote for think it's not because he's a black man?  I doubt it.  So, yeah, the diarist, in my opinion, has Every right to feel the way he/she does, every right.  He wasn't hateful about it whatsoever, just frustrated.  So instead of every poster here taking it in the negative way, turn it into a positive like Fairy Tale.  That assumes we can all be grownups enough to take a hard look at the decisions our government has taken over the years in order to understand some of Dr. Wright's condemnations AND it also takens understanding and empathy what AAs have suffered at the hands of whites to understand the underlying feelings still subject to being expressed when it's Aired on National Television Every Freakin' Day that the non-educated blue collar white working class are all supporting Obama.  I get to say all this, you know why?  I"m white, I'm middle aged, and I have a family full of bigoted racists.  So, yeah, the diarist gets to say what he says as long as it's thoughtful and non destructive and I don't think it is.

  •  There should be only Americans (6+ / 0-)

    in our debate. Calling out Black Americans or White Americans, or Yellow and Brown Americans only serves to divide us more. We are after all, all in this this ship of State, together.

    "Though the Mills of the Gods grind slowly,Yet they grind exceeding small."

    by Owllwoman on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:27:28 AM PDT

  •  Grow up indeed (12+ / 0-)

    comments show that there is still growing up to do. None of us likes to think we're part of a problem, and many white people AREN'T part of the problem, certainly most here--but you know what, too bad.

    We didn't vote for Bush either, but we're still Americans, and we still bear some burden (certainly as perceived by the rest of the world) for his actions. It's part of being a community, or a group.

    Even if you, individual white person, aren't part of the problem, rather than taking umbrage on behalf of yourself, can we acknowledge that there are enough people who are part of the problem that they ARE causing us to move closer to the edge of the cliff? And what was that about white people having to talk to white people about racism?

    Barack Obama will only become president if enough people pay attention, so pay attention, dammit!

    by JMS on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:31:33 AM PDT

    •  How is it surprising (5+ / 0-)

      that someone would be taken aback for having assumptions made about them due to the color of their skin?

      Perhaps part of the problem is that humans make assumptions about humans.  Humans can be brutal to humans because of skin color or because of where they live or were born or what god they worship.  History is replete with examples.  Do we not all (regardless of the pigmentation of our skin) own a piece of the problem?  

      So yes, I agree that we are all part of the problem.
      That said I can only affect myself directly.  I can affect my family to a degree and I can affect my friends to a degree. And I try to do that.  And progress is excruciatingly slow.  

      "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

      by newfie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:59:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Well said. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        It has to start at home, and by home, I mean where you live/work/play.

        [-6.25, -5.59] "The love you take is equal to the love you make." - J. Lennon, P. McCartney

        by Phil N DeBlanc on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:11:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I take this approach (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Phil N DeBlanc, Liberal Monk

          with many things.  Sometimes I succeed.  I never think I can change anyone else overnight.  And sometimes I fail.  

          A great example is my son's coach.  Generally a good guy.  Very caring and dedicated to kids - all kids.  But he harbors some underlying prejudices - blacks, women, libruls etc.  If I approach him with quiet gentle reason and give him lots of time and use all the patience I have thenhe starts to "step out of this protective shell" but as soon as I lose my patiences - usually with the help of someone more ardent than I am, then my passion rises and he goes right back in and refuses to come out.

          I do not kid myself into believing that Ican change him totally.  My goal is to change him even slightly so that it will affect his kids to some degree.  And then sometime down the road things will be different.

          My slight problem with this diary is that while the message is bang on, Jazzyjay dips into rhetoric that causes at least some defensiveness in folks.  I do not find that to be the most effective path.  

          "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

          by newfie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:22:59 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  We are all imperfect (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            newfie, Phil N DeBlanc

            I did try to choose my language carefully, but when you are dealing with really raw feelings it is difficult. Sorry if something said could have been said better.

            •  In my experience (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Phil N DeBlanc

              everything I say could probably have been said better. C'est la vie.

              You're doing okay - based on this audience.  "Hey White People" on the surface is off putting and not what I would have chosen based on my experience with defensiveness.  Your message is good for me.

              "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

              by newfie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 09:35:55 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

  •  I am white and I think that Rev. Wright has (13+ / 0-)

    been mischaracterized and treated terribly. I am with you.  

    The corporate media are destroying progressive Democrats. The Clintons are destroying the Democratic Party.

    by lecsmith on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:34:22 AM PDT

  •  I agree (7+ / 0-)

    Too much 'us and them', not enough 'we're all in it together'. Thanks for just putting it out there - there's only so much explaining you can do.
    Warmly, J.

    "I won't have any aggressive condiment passing in this house!" Marge Simpson

    by AussieJo on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:35:16 AM PDT

  •  I'm white and agree with Wright about some things (3+ / 0-)

    but not the whole believing in God thing.  That's beyond silly.

    •  True Fact. (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Phil N DeBlanc

      It's the American way: you hear some guy saying things, and you think, OK, you've caught my  attention, do go on. And he goes on, and you're thinking, OK, intriguing; don't stop. Then they come out with that whole "I believe in God" thing, and for me at least, it's as if they suddenly stopped talking like a sensible person and started spouting fluent Babylonian while the top of their head pops open like a garbage can and 3-headed snakes with laser-beam eyes come swarming out. It's just, well, alarming.

  •  Good thing us whiteys (4+ / 0-)

    didn't give up on black people, or my candiadte of choice, Senator Obama, wouldn't be where he is today. I, for one, don't appreciate the way you lump us all together.

    [-6.25, -5.59] "The love you take is equal to the love you make." - J. Lennon, P. McCartney

    by Phil N DeBlanc on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:37:50 AM PDT

    •  I probably would have preferred you 'whiteys' (0+ / 0-)

      give up on blacks way earlier, then maybe most blacks would still be in Africa, no?

      Let's keep it real, please?  The Media, people, everybody GROUPS everybody.  To act like it's so crazy that someone else has made a group generalization is kinda childish.

      Take what you need from his diary and leave what you don't... i mean damn.

      Using Hillary's Logic, IF my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle.

      by Ambboogie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:51:56 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Are you fucking kidding me Phil N DeBlanc? (0+ / 0-)

      From the white lady:  get the FUCK off Daily Kos and go somewhere else.  You gotta be a Hillary supporter.

      •  Again, you don't know me, (0+ / 0-)

        so back the fuck off. I am fervently pro-Obama, and have been since JRE dropped out. How long have you been here? A month? Two? Maybe you're on the wrong blog. This is a big tent, get used to it.

        [-6.25, -5.59] "The love you take is equal to the love you make." - J. Lennon, P. McCartney

        by Phil N DeBlanc on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 07:04:12 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Okay, fair enough and I saw your grandbabies who. (3+ / 0-)

          are adorable...

          I don't understand your "whitey" comment.  My Mom has a bi-racial grand-daughter whom she loves very much (My daughter) and she Still has underlying bigoted views which will never go.

          I equate that kind of comment with underlying views and I'm trying to point it out to you.  I think it's like this:  if a message isn't intended for you, then you don't react one way or the other...if the shoe fits, one starts squirming.

          That's all I'm saying...and, I apologize for getting so pissed off...I've dealt with bigotry in my family since I was 13 and react...but, still no excuse to be so mean.

          •  Apology accepted. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Liberal Monk

            Sorry for being so defensive, but I think you now know how I feel about my grandchildren. I, too, have had to deal with bigotry for most of my 46 years, and it looks like I'll have to deal with it a lot longer because of them. And you know what, I'll do it gladly.

            The "whitey" comment comes from living in Texas and constantly being lumped in with the large number of ignorant people that live here. That number is slowly decreasing, but there are still a lot of them around - I deal with them every day. I try my best not to generalize, and I get a little defensive when someone does it to me.

            Ok, I'm calm. Sorry for being so sensitive.

            [-6.25, -5.59] "The love you take is equal to the love you make." - J. Lennon, P. McCartney

            by Phil N DeBlanc on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 07:17:26 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

  •  I don't take this post personally at all. I don't (12+ / 0-)

    feel it is aimed at me necessarily, but to the extent that jazzyj asks me or all of us to think more deeply about race and racism in this country, I think that is fine.

    The corporate media are destroying progressive Democrats. The Clintons are destroying the Democratic Party.

    by lecsmith on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:38:20 AM PDT

  •  Sorry to burst your bubble (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    but obviously that is where you are. The anger of these "so called white progressive" you seem to think is unjust is an example of someone trying to have their cake and eat it too.

    The issue is not race to most. The issue is the manner in which Rev. Wright choose to address his response, as well as the timing. Rev. Wright did as good a job as Hillary and her bunch of tossing Obama under the bus. The manner, tone and choice of wording (or lack there of) did nothing to help Obama, he in this interview dismissed Obama in the worst possible manner he could, and at a time that was potentially the most harmful to Obama as possible. I question Rev. Wright's support of Barack Obama and see this as a tactic the Clinton camp would use.

    Rev. Wright has the right to say and think whatever he chooses, no one should question that. I and others have a right to agree or disagree with him as well, without it being implied we are racist. Rev. Wright in that interview called himself a "pastor and man of God". Though not a Christian I was always under the impression one did not use "the Lord's name in vain" as Rev. Wright choose to do in one of those sermons. Maybe, Rev. Wright needs to go back  to Divinty School and take Divinty 101 again.

    Words escape me, but deeds are always noticed

    by utopia on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:39:34 AM PDT

    •  God damn America (4+ / 0-)

      is not really taking the Lord's name in vain, except under the most shallow interpretation of what "in vain" means.  If you are not a Christian, then why would you assume that your interpretation of what "in vain" means is more correct than his, therefore he needs to go back to Divinity school?  Give me a break.  I do see a racial element in the harsh judgments about Wright from people who know nothing but the snippets about his sermons, nothing about his church, and clearly not all that much about Christianity.

      •  Perhaps having been supposedly raised "Christian" (0+ / 0-)

        and having been admonished more times then I care to even try and count over my use of God Damn or Goddamn I choose and can respond this manner. If he did not mean it in using the "Lord's " name in vain then he forgot another Christian tenent straight from the bible....."judge ye not less ye be judged", or from Romans "judge ye not for I am the one and only final judge".

        Pretty harsh of the good Rev to ask God to damn all Americans for the poor judgement of some don't you think?

        Words escape me, but deeds are always noticed

        by utopia on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:33:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Christianity isn't only about (0+ / 0-)

          what people tell you about.  There are lots of false teachers who set rules based on questionable biblical interpretations.  I don't believe in biblical interpretations that take snippets out of the bible and use it irrespective of context.  I don't believe in doing that with sermons either.  Wright's speech was about confusing government with God.  His criticisms were criticisms of governments - part of that is "God Damn America as long as she tries to act like she is God and she is Supreme."  

          There is certainly an element of patriotism in this country that your worth as an American is based on blind support of the government without criticism, but that is pretty far removed from Christianity.  People like to conveniently confuse the U.S. government with Americans, but it is dishonest to do so.  We are not one in the same.  Wright was not damning Americans, he was damning the actions of the government.

          •  Here we are in total agreement (0+ / 0-)

            which is why we are here on this community. We are wise enough not to blindly support our government. TG for Kos. Though it should be noted government is a reflection of the population. Why do you think after the 2004 elections British papers asked "How can 52,000,000 Americans be so wrong"? We were given a break in 200 that ended in 04.

            Words escape me, but deeds are always noticed

            by utopia on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 11:55:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I think the messag in context (0+ / 0-)

          is that America brings condemnation upon itself when it ways are inconsistent with the will of God. I think the word in this Biblical context is consistent with the word "WOE" another word that is used to communicate God's displeasure with the activities of men. Dr. Wright was not asking God to condemn America, he was warning America that it is in danger of condemnation. Which is really the point Dr. Wright is making it is a message taken out of context and used to hurt him.

    •  If you really read the Bible (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      perro amarillo

      you'll see God Damning a lot of things in it.

      Using Hillary's Logic, IF my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle.

      by Ambboogie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:53:49 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

  •  Not on me either... Yes, I'm another white person (10+ / 0-)

    but I'm in my living room, probably at the same time you are, watching people on TV doing everything they can to destroy the hope I hold in my heart that Barack Obama will be our next President.  

    I'm thrilled that Obama is a combination of both of our races.  And, at the same time in other ways I really don't care what race he is.  

    He is saying what needs to be said.  Words that hold great promise.  He strikes me as sincere even though I can't remember the last time I believed that about a politician.  

    I am willing to hope.  To participate for the first time ever.  That didn't come easy for me and yes those other people trying to take that away sometimes scare me soooo bad.

    Don't give up on me... I'm not giving up on the hope that Obama offers.  I realize I'm not handling my fears perfectly but god knows I'm trying.

  •  Complicated (6+ / 0-)

    I think the Wright controversy has given people permission to not even try to understand where Wright is coming from.  I'm pretty disappointed that Obama and other black folks on television have been sure to disavow Wright's comments (while defending the man).  If they are saying it is wrong, then why would anyone coming from a completely different culture have any incentive to see what was really going on. I think it is cultural, but I don't see it as exclusively racial.  Southern churches and black churches have similar ways of preaching, so I would be surprised if white folks attending southern churches didn't understand the rhetorical tools that Wright was using.  Furthermore, the whole idea of switching your church just because you don't like a sermon seems completely ridiculous to me.  All of the relationships that you develop and the community that you have become a part of, just give it up because the pastor says something that you don't agree with?  I have trouble believing that devout churchgoers support that idea.  Anyway, lots of cultural things going on beside race that make this controvery complicated.

    •  Completely agree with that (0+ / 0-)

      Seems to me the reason the Wright thing didn't implode Barack's candidacy is because white church goers are not happy to give TV people veto power or the power to sanction ministers as to what is appropriate to come from the pulpit. People of faith are not willing to put up with the media doing what is done to this preacher, even if they don't agree with what Dr. Wright said. Now will they do more than just murmer about it or will they come to his aid. I think if the MSM keeps pushing this, they will be drawn into it. Not in defense necessarily of Wright, but of the right to our freedom of religion.

  •  As a white person (11+ / 0-)

    I don't understand why whites become so defensive when the truth is forced on their attention. I don't feel or accept personal responsibility for all the injustice to blacks in the US but as a citizen I do accept a responsibility to insist that our government not perpetuate the injustice and that it take action to offset the past injustices. I firmly believe that the civil rights movement got its' victories when blacks forced the truth on whites. When we whites realized that we as a nation were not living up to our ideals. When we insisted that our government and institutions which received government support tacit or otherwise be
    compelled to treat all equally before the law. It is still true that there actions and policies which keeps blacks at a disadvantage simply because they're black.

    •  Probably because it's a wide brush (9+ / 0-)

      and we don't all fit under it. I have two mixed race grandkids that I would kill and/or die for:

      Unlike others, I haven't had to come very far in my race ideology, but when my daughter gave me these wonderful grandbabies, it was easy to put any lingering racist ideas I may have had from my upbringing right out of my head. We aren't all the same because we're white, any more than all blacks (or any other minority in the US) are the same.

      [-6.25, -5.59] "The love you take is equal to the love you make." - J. Lennon, P. McCartney

      by Phil N DeBlanc on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 05:52:37 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Phil... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Phil N DeBlanc

        Your grandbabies are adorable. OT, I know, but I had to say that.

        "Truth never damages a cause that is just."~~~Mohandas K. Gandhi -9.38/-6.26

        by LynneK on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:26:11 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  I'm soon to be (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Phil N DeBlanc

        the grandparent of a bi-racial child, too.  It's given me the opportunity to really think again what it might mean to be black in America.  To further make the point about all the differences that exist between us all, my coming grandchild's other set of grandparents are black hispanics.    

      •  Beautiful kids (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        tjb22, Phil N DeBlanc

        but you're missing the point.

        The Media is driving a narrative that is dividing whites against blacks.

        It is trying to make an argument that Barack Obama hates white people secretly, and many people are latching onto that argument, even it is not you.

        I mean, that's just the reality of the situation.

        Using Hillary's Logic, IF my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle.

        by Ambboogie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:56:18 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The media is giving (0+ / 0-)

          white people an excuse to be bigoted...if you keep telling them over and over again that they aren't alone in being racist, and that "everyone else" who's "just like them" is a racist, people will start accepting it as the norm again.  They're giving permission.

        •  Yeah, maybe, (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jazzyjay, blueocean

          but do you think that the people that latch on to that "Barack hates white people" meme would vote for him anyway? They're the same ones that still think he's a Muslim. We all have to do our part, and I for one, have persuaded my daughter and SIL to vote Obama, as well as my Republican dad. Barely a day goes by that I don't thwart a RW smear email using links I've been provided here on dKos or using snopes. The media doesn't control the blogs. Long live the blogs!

          [-6.25, -5.59] "The love you take is equal to the love you make." - J. Lennon, P. McCartney

          by Phil N DeBlanc on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 07:09:15 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Well its not really about that at this point (0+ / 0-)

            I think that there are small chunks of people who are wavering, but most people know they are voting for Obama or not.

            The problem is, perception is reality. And with the Media pushing this race division thing, most especialy Fox News, continually, it is bound to sway folks.

            If you say a lie enough times with force, people start believing it.

            Using Hillary's Logic, IF my Aunt had balls she'd be my Uncle.

            by Ambboogie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 07:15:14 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

    •  Hey I wrote this as I was getting ready for work (7+ / 0-)

      Now I actually have to go. But it is generating what I had hoped some serious dialog. I am not lumping everyone into one pot. I know there are real supporters out there. I really just wanted to put a different perspective in the air and draw attention to it. Mission accomplished.

      Thanks community.

  •  You're right on about self-sacrifice... (8+ / 0-)

    that Obama is making here.  Rarely is it mentioned that he has taken on a tremendous risk running for President.  Why does he do it?  It's in his nature to fight to make things better.  It is not to fulfill political aspirations--look at the things which motivate this man, his life pattern, and work pattern.  Never before him have I gotten the feeling from a candidate that they are running for office for the pure and sole purpose of making American life better, for Americans, all Americans.  Grow up is an understatement; maybe grow above the nonsense is more direct.      

  •  I saw a comment that said that Obama needed to (8+ / 0-)

    lose the black accent when he was speaking. I seriously did a doubletake. What?!

    Someone had a good response. I think that black people who are paying attention to this race, we know the line that Obama has to tiptoe, to stay viable.

    That's why Tavis Smiley got hit so hard with the backlash from black listeners after he was whining about Obama not coming to the SOTBU. That's why, for the most part, people weren't up in arms about Obama rejecting Wright's comments while not rejecting the man.

    But that suggestion in a diary yesterday was seriously offensive to me. I'm at the point where I really don't care how certain things come off to people. If Obama is going to lose because he's "too black" or whatever, then so be it. If someone seriously has an issue with Obama because he sounds like a black preacher than I really don't know what to say to that. But I'm not asking Obama change himself to make those people comfortable. That's ridiculous.

    •  agree with your post 1000% (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Terri, LynneK, jazzyjay

      sometimes I feel like I'm going crazy, and then I read a post that let's me know I'm not alone. Thank you!

      "I ain't so afraid of losing something that I ain't gonna try to have it." Zoe (Firefly)

      by geejay on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:21:39 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I thought he should (0+ / 0-)

      lose the Chicago accent.

      "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

      by newfie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:24:33 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Should Hillary knock of the fake southern accent? (0+ / 0-)

      Nobody is calling her out on that bullcrap.  She was in NC yesterday speaking, with a full drawl.  Give me a break.  Next we'll be hearing how she was born there too.....

      •  She lived the 1st half of her adult life... (0+ / 0-)

        IN ARKANSAS, for crying out loud.
        Everybody is entitled to use every accent they
        are skilled enough to master.  If it's not authentic,
        if it's WORK for her, then at least she was HONORING
        the audience by making the (difficult?) effort to speak
        to them  in their language.
        Seriously, what anybody other than the intended audience
        thinks about it is not even relevant.

        "You can't nice these people to death."-- John Edwards

        by ge0rge on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 03:36:48 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

  •  Jazzy... I agree with alot you said (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    geejay, LynneK, Phil N DeBlanc

    I am white. I am surprised to hear alot of the shit that I do on this progressive blog.

    God Damn America...relax people. I have said that many times.
    After reading Bury my heart at wounded knee, Assata, Mumia, Malcolm X, Howard Zinn, Chomsky...

    After seeing so many cops walk for killing people of color and walking...and keeping their jobs to boot.

  •  what we have now learned (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    jazzyjay, Donise, Ambboogie

    is that half of white people in America are much better than we ever imagined they would or could be, and this is news of a brighter day. It fills my heart with gladness to see, having in the past given up.

    On the other hand, we find half are pretty nasty, and about 28% REALLY nasty and about half of those hopelessly, irredeemably so.

    And a lot of those nasty ugly white motherfuckers are in the Democratic Party. WTF am I doing in this Party with those drooling ugly evil people who cannot, will not, and will never understand the first sensible thing about race in America? (and a special fuck you to Geraldine Ferraro belongs here)

    Yes, I too despair, and yes that feeling is getting worse, and yes, I too sometimes throw up my hands  and shout GROW UP.

    I try to remember, how many truly wonderful people there are, how I had been unfair in never expecting this, how I now have hope again after giving that up about 30 years ago, how like Michelle Obama for the first time in ages I am really proud of what I see in America, and that we are winning, and that even if the worst happens this year, the change has happened and is pretty much inevitable. The dinosaurs are now stuck in the tarpits and thrashing and howling as they sink. I have to remind myself to stop listening to their howl, and just watch them sink away.

    by krnewman on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:31:06 AM PDT

    •  I assume you throw around the (0+ / 0-)

      numbers figuratively and not literally.  Don't assume that because someone doesn't vote for Obama that it is becasue of his race.  Frankly, I wasn't all that hot on him earlier on because of his experience.  Or at least that was a detractor.  So peopel can certainly be for Clinton without necessarily being against Obama and it doesn't necessarily have to do with race.

      Oh and I suspect even some of those who state they would sit out rather than vote Obama are only mired in the competitive environment that has gotten worse over the past 20 years.  I think once he gets the nomination some of hose folks will settle down and vote for him - they're just pissed that he's winning.

      "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

      by newfie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 09:51:51 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  only about 15% of Clinton voters are (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        racists, and they aren't necessarily supporters, merely people who vote for her instead of Obama.

        As you say there are a lot of Clinton supporters who will settle down. THese include many I know who feel that not so much specifically Clinton as much as A WOMAN, any woman, really deserves to be president and that it is long overdue and that America owes this to them. Owes it to Clinton, for putting up with her husband who committed the sins of all men, but also America owes it to them personally as women.

        And they were just about to get it, it was in the bag, and all of a sudden comes this guy out of nowhere who takes it away from Clinton, takes it away from her. As if America has played some bitter trick on them to cheat them out of what is their due, what they are owed. And Obama, and his supporters, are standing in the way of their blind rage at America, at History, at Unfairness. I think more than anything a lot of the bitterness felt by Clinton supporters, the ones who are basically decent if deluded people, is this sense of gross unfairness.

        by krnewman on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 11:46:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  oooo (0+ / 0-)

          yeah there's that.  I think that America owes me a fricking intelligent President that isn't going to screw me over.  I don't get the "owing" piece.  But maybe that's why we ended up with a moron as President as the morons felt it was high time that a moron was elected President (like that hasn't happened before).

          "You have attributed conditions to villainy that simply result from stupidity"

          by newfie on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 12:46:08 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

  •  Why can't BO just make us feel good (4+ / 0-)

    Most white people (myself included) would just like to pretend that we're living in a post-racial society, and with the racist commentary and campaign tactics swirling around BO, as epitomized by the Wright controversy, we're left trying to reconcile our desired image as liberals with our history of racism and Jim Crow.  Not pleasant.  Hillary offers an alternative--if we just vote for her she'll put a few blacks in key positions in her administration, and we can all feel good about the progress we've made.  Hillary:  The First Female Black President.  Are you feeling better now?  

    •  Well I actually heard Chuck T on MSNBC (0+ / 0-)

      say that. He said whites really want to believe that by electing Barack we will close the door on all things racial, and they won't ever have to deal with the messy topic again. I think some progressives fall into that group as well. But the opposite is true the questions regarding race in America are front and center. The light at the end of the tunnel is that if we face our fears, trust each other and continue down this road, at the end of the journey there is a better day for all of us. But the movement toward progress is not without costs and stuggle. We have to walk together courageously and respectfully. That is the challenge we all face that even in our most tired and frustrating moments we don't give up.

  •  Didn't Wright just say (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Phil N DeBlanc, Fairy Tale

    in this interview what we all have said before?  That politics and religion should be separate?  That's the way I took it.

    I'm tired of people acting as if they are shocked that preaching goes on in a black church.  Preaching goes on in white churches, too.  

  •  Amen, from a Middle Aged White Woman who AGREES! (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    rian90, Phil N DeBlanc, jazzyjay

    ...I understand your frustrations, I do.  Have the same frustrations myself which I've ranted about but pulled back to some degree.  And, I agree if America votes in Hillary or McCain, we get what we deserve.  I've said this before.  We allowed it to happen with Gore, it was even worse that we did with Kerry.  So, I agree....and for the record I completely understand the context of Dr. Wright's sermons and myself have expressed many of the same and have had to defend them to people inside my own family who painted my comments as anti-American or unpatriotic. yeah, glad you posted this but really Dialy Kos isn't the community which needs to hear it....but maybe they can be the community to start spreading it...

  •  i look forward (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Phil N DeBlanc

    to the Rev. Wright interview.  I don't think there's any reason to fear this kind of exposure.  Pretty much all the coverage of him has been negative so this is a chance to put him in a different light.  I don't claim to know much about him, but what I have learned about his background and career is impressive.  He is an acclomplished, intelligent, rational man as is Bill Moyers.  It should be an enlightening conversation.

  •  Agreement with sentiment, disagreement with (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Phil N DeBlanc


    We have lived through 7 generations of the most inhuman, unjust, and brutal treatment any human being has ever afflicted on another in the history of the world.

    Um....there have been many millennia of horrid treatment to people of all races and creeds. You don't have to put your heritage on the top of the pile to get sympathy.

    The modern news media draws half its power from coils placed around the spinning in Edward R. Murrow's grave.

    by aigeanta on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 06:57:13 AM PDT

  •  Thanks for saying it (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Phil N DeBlanc, jazzyjay

    as the primaries drag on and the flame of racial doubt is fanned into a roaring fire by HRC, Bill and Republican operatives, I feel if Barack Obama is unfairly denied the nomination or if white people are distracted by some manufactured racial controversy and don't support a Democrat in November, than I am wiping my hands of it. I will withdraw my application for government service, I will no longer serve in elected office unless I will represent a majority people of color constituency. I'm sorry. This society has had too many examples of people of color who have shown themselves to be the best that humanity has to offer for racism to continue in such virulent ways. It is the depth of stupidity to assume that a person's skin color has any effect upon whether or not they can provide a credible plan for health insurance, housing foreclosures, war, etc. It is the depth of stupidity to assume that the amount of melanin in one's skin is the ultimate determiner of one's character and abilities. If this were true, George Bush has ruined any belief in the intelligence of white people. Last week a friend of mine traveled from Ohio to Pennsylvania to canvas for Barack Obama. A number of times she was told to her face, by the good people of Western PA, the salt of the earth, that they will not vote for a nigger. My friend is visibly of Puerto Rican and African American heritage. If this is what two hundred years of white privilege freedom and liberty has boiled down to . . . if the efforts of committed advocates of freedom to desperately save the nation from its most egregious sins . . . if the effort to craft a new politics where our fellow citizens are not our enemies and the way we talk about policy and each other is raised to productive levels . . . if the attempt to move this country from an abyss of political and economic devastation, is met with an enthusiastic, "I will not vote for a nigger!" than fuck these people they are too stupid to receive my best intentions. African Americans in our centuries long attempt to save ourselves have invariably had to extend a helping hand to white America. But it seems still too many do not want to be saved, blinded by the fictions of race to realize that regardless of color or ethnicity, we are all sinking together. So as they say where I come from, "let a ho be a ho." You can't save someone that doesn't want to be saved. God bless Obama's ability to care, I know I am at my rope's end. And yes the Obama campaign is the first time as an adult I have felt proud and invested in this country.

    "How can I go off and join FRELIMO, when I've got 9 more payments on the fridge?" Mrs. Conclusion Monty Python

    by Sansouci on Fri Apr 25, 2008 at 07:21:42 AM PDT

  •  Don't paint with a broad brush: (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    lightfoot, Phil N DeBlanc

    And I may be ready to give up on white people.

    Go after individuals. That comment is not helpful.

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